Respect Jaime Lannister Sandor Clegane

Who embodies the typical antihero in the song for you?

  • Then I'll move the antihero topic here. Maybe there will be a stimulating discussion .....

    de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiheld

    According to the explanation of the meaning given above, for me, like Riddick, for example, Sandor is the tragic antihero. In any case, I recognize him from the characteristics. I don't know whether Jaime can take on this role, because he doesn't actually have the typical characteristics. Perhaps Tyrion or Sam fit more into this scheme .....?


    Who do you think could play this role in the song and why?
  • Sand shark

    CRPG adept, strategy student, traveler in the Internet sea

    Let's go through the features listed in the article you linked:

    1. Sandor Clegane

    -Insulation

    -Self-destructive anger

    Social criticism in the form of criticism of chivalry.

    -Failure (does not get his revenge on his brother)

    2. Jaime Lannister

    - Failure (wanted to be the next Ser Arthur Dayne by his own judgment, has turned into the smiling knight)

    - Nonconformity (corresponds only to a limited extent to the ideal of the noble knight (rescue Brienne), has no qualms about violating the knight's code (Kingslayer, threats against Edmure))

    -Isolating increasingly from his family

    3. Rhaegar Targaryen

    -Melancholy

    -Insulation

    - Failure (loses the battle of Ruby Ford and his life, fails to bring about a peaceful change of rulers or to secure the rule of the House of Targaryen)

    - unfavorable, nonconforming behavior (kidnapping Lyanna, planned deposition of his father)

    4. Jon Snow

    -Isolation (bastard status)

    -Nonconformity (breaks with all traditions of the night watch, makes dishonorable decisions to achieve its goals)

    -critical attitude towards. others, no evidence of the characteristic Stark naivete

    - Failure (due to his bastard status he can never be a real Stark, cannot uphold the Stark moral code, may not be able to prevent war between wildlings and kneeling)

    5. Theon Greyjoy

    -Isolation (will not be accepted as a full family member by either Starks or Greyjoy)

    -Failure (by conquering Winterfell and later rescuing Jeyne, fails to earn the respect of northern or iron men, has the stigma of apostate clinging to it)

    -Humanity (vanity, impulsiveness, mistakes in assessing facts)

    6. Tyrion Lannister

    - unfair behavior (lets a singer turn it into a stew, intrigues at court against his own family, acts against the will of his father, tarnishes the honor of his house, kills his own father)

    -relative isolation

    -critical attitude

    -Humanity (impulsiveness, naivety (projection of his feelings for Tysha onto Shae))

    - Failure (fails to enforce his birthright, is branded as a two-time kinsman, his services in the battle against Stannis are not recognized (his own father has to get a "thank you"), he is disastrous by the people for Joffrey's and Cersei's rule held responsible and downright hated)

    So all these characters have anti-hero characteristics and are therefore somehow to be classified in this category. The question is to what extent do they represent typical antiheroes. The question arises how exactly you, Shanara, typically define.
    "The world has enough for everyone's needs, but not for everyone's greed." (Gandhi)

    The purpose of life should not be to do what we want, but to do what is reasonable.
  • Tyrion is a typical antihero so far, I think.

    There is still a lot going to happen. Perhaps the ultimate antihero is someone like Varys.
  • To be honest, I don't see either heroes or antiheroes in the song. In my opinion, GRRM succeeds in making all the people involved appear human and not very heroic. For me, a classic antihero in fantasy literature would be Kane. I don't really see an antihero in this classic sense here.

    Otherwise, in my opinion, Arya is still missing from Sandhai's list:
    - Isolation (she keeps losing family, friends and companions)
    - self-destructive anger (her prayer of revenge)
    - failure (just doesn't reach Winterfell ...)
    - Non-conformity (does not meet the expectations of a young lady in this world)

    It almost comes closest to my idea of ​​antihero, but it doesn't quite come close yet.
    I've come to the point in my life where I need a stronger word than "FUCK".
  • In addition to those already mentioned, I would also want to add Ser Jorah Mormont to the list. He also combines some of the listed characteristics in his person. The isolation anyway, since he is in exile and I don't think we need to talk about his failure either.
    But in general, as already stated here, many characters of the song fit relatively well into this role.
    The human drawing of the characters is without a doubt one of the song's strengths. I even think it would be a lot more difficult to find a true hero than an antihero in the song.
    "Not every man has it in him to be Prince Aemon the Dragonknight." -Wyman Manderly

    Ceterum censeo Casimirem esse delendum.
  • The other

    The horror of rulers, destroyers of worlds, lord of horror, for the other others a very dear one.

    I think the term "antihero" in the linked wiki article is somewhat over-defined or contradicting itself. Basically, the examples given contradict the previous definition:

    "The main difference between anti-hero and hero is that the anti-hero, unlike the hero, is doomed to failure and his story therefore has to do without a happy ending."

    Whether Till Eulenspiegel, Schwejk or others, there is often the antihero who in the end makes everyone else look bad and laughs up his sleeve.

    The educational effect of the antihero is supposed to be that it is possible to end up shining even if one does not have the talents of a typical hero.

    With LvFuE it seems to me to be much easier to list which of the main characters is not eligible as an antihero. The more we learn about a character, the more we see their inadequacies and failures, but also their efforts.

    The attempt to find a real hero as a character to identify with while reading is a systematic failure of GRRM by letting the possible protagonists die (Ned, Renley, Robb, possibly Tywin) and / or dismantling them (Cat, Stannis). What remains are more or less broken figures, all of which somehow come into question for the title of antihero. I think that's really great and very smart.
    The difference between good and bad is basically the same as that between one's own interests and those of others. Objectively there is no good and no bad. - However, objectively there is probably nothing of all that we perceive with our senses.
  • ... The attempt to find a real hero as a character to identify with while reading, GRRM systematically fails by letting the possible protagonists die (.... possibly Tywin) and / or dismantling (Cat .....). What remains are more or less broken figures, all of which somehow come into question for the title of antihero. I think that's really great and very smart.


    While reading, I only find one who would be suitable for the hero and that is mmn Davos.
    Tywin as a heroic figure of identification ?????
    What do you mean, Cat dismantled? In what way?
  • Shanara wrote:

    While reading, I only find one that could be considered for the hero and that is mmn Davos.

    Hm .. well, Davos is definitely one of the most honorable people who appear in the song. I don't see him as a classic hero. As a hero in the song, I could actually only describe people we don't know too much about. Maybe somehow Rhaegar , although he is already on the list of antiheroes or Arthur Dayne.Selmy would probably also be a hero if we didn't know so much about him by now. Although nothing negative is known about him, our knowledge makes him human and thus less heroic to me, which is of course my own personal feeling.
    As an antihero, I'd probably most likely see Sandor, Jorah, Samwell, and Tyrion.
    Expose yourself to your deepest fear
    After that ... you are free
    -Jim Morrison

    But it is time for me to learn that nothing lasts forever, both that which is good and that which hurts.
  • The other

    The horror of rulers, destroyers of worlds, lord of horror, for the other others a very dear one.

    Tywin as a heroic figure of identification ?????
    What do you mean, Cat dismantled? In what way?

    After I lost Ned and Robb as sympathetic hero characters, I actually saw Tywin as the most likely hero. He represents what he considers to be the interests of the empire with reason and personal authority. You can certainly not deny him glamor, success and powerful charisma. His goals may be unkind from the Starks' point of view, but they're not selfish like Littlefinger's. He tries to get the best out of his family AND the realm. Through Tyrion we learn something of his excessively violent side, but on the other hand it is also conveyed that he tends to be such a hard being due to the weakness of his father.

    Well, Cat seems clear to me. Cat was a strong figure as a woman and a mother. GRRM then dismantled them to the Uncat, which doesn't seem to be much better than the revenants on the other side of the wall.

    Davos is again a candidate for the antihero. He has had a career as a criminal that he has paid for by losing his fingers. He lost beloved sons in the battle of Blackwater. He has now bound himself for better or for worse to a gentleman whose actions he can only partially understand. Sometimes the actions of Stannis under the influence of Melisande go deeply against Davos' sense of justice. But he still feels obliged to be loyalty.
    The difference between good and bad is basically the same as that between one's own interests and those of others. Objectively there is no good and no bad. - However, objectively there is probably nothing of all that we perceive with our senses.
  • The other wrote:

    He tries to get the best out of his family AND the realm.

    I don't want to deny it at first, but I would be interested to know where you get that from. I would be happy if you would explain this using passages in the Tywin Lannister thread (or if there is still a real connection to the topic, also in this thread here).
    The wiki of ice and fire looks forward to your cooperation. Take a look: eisundfeuer.fandom.com/de
    __________________________________________________________________

    "We all swore oaths." - Arthur Dayne

    "There are ghosts everywhere. We carry them with us wherever we go." - Jorah Mormont
  • The other

    The horror of rulers, destroyers of worlds, lord of horror, for the other others a very dear one.

    Yes, I occasionally answer in the Tywin thread, although I suspect that every figure from LvFuE in principle also fits into the antihero thread. So far, I've been wondering for quite a while which corpse Ned might still have in the basement.

    I am afraid, however, that I will not come with specific text passages. On the one hand, it is an ordeal to find something specific in the absence of a table of contents, and on the other hand, I don't think much of breaking a description down into individual text passages, as the subtext is then often lost. After all, literature is not mathematics.
    The difference between good and bad is basically the same as that between one's own interests and those of others. Objectively there is no good and no bad. - However, objectively there is probably nothing of all that we perceive with our senses.
  • Well, if you're making the claim that Tywin cares about the welfare of the empire as much as he cares about the welfare of his home, you should at least have some clues on it. Otherwise I just say "no" and the discussion is over because of inexperience.
    The wiki of ice and fire looks forward to your cooperation. Take a look: eisundfeuer.fandom.com/de
    __________________________________________________________________

    "We all swore oaths." - Arthur Dayne

    "There are ghosts everywhere. We carry them with us wherever we go." - Jorah Mormont
  • Against it speaks that he did not intervene when the realm needed him most, namely during the rebellion as a hand and friend of Aerys II. I like Tywin, but not because of his love for the realm
    The living should smile, for the dead cannot.
  • Balerion the Black wrote:

    Against this is the fact that he did not intervene when the Reich needed him most, namely during the rebellion as the hand and friend of Aerys II. I like Tywin, but not because of his love for the Reich

    As far as I can tell, Tywin was neither the hand of Aerys nor his friend at the time of Robert's Rebellion.
    During his time as a hand, Tywin was quite successful; I think he would have made a capable regent, but not that that would have benefited the people very much.
    I copied that from the wiki.
    However, he soon began to regret that decision, not because Tywin was incompetent, but on the contrary: he turned out to be a brilliant strategist and his reputation for being brutally effective became so well known and widely respected that the rumor arose, Tywin did not Aerys, would rule the empire. Lord Tywin's captain in the Kingsguard, Ser Ilyn Payn, lost his tongue at repeating this boast near Aerys. Envious of the respect and fear shown to Lord Tywin, Aerys began to grow suspicious of him.

    This is followed by the "alienation" of Tywin and Aerys. Tywin feels humiliated several times by Aerys. They were by no means friends at the time of the rebellion.
    Expose yourself to your deepest fear
    After that ... you are free
    -Jim Morrison

    But it is time for me to learn that nothing lasts forever, both what is good and what is painful.
  • I thought Aerys wanted to use Tywin as a hand again, but checked again, it wasn't. Kevan only thought about Connington's exile, that Aeys would have to come crawling now.
    As far as I know, Aerys and Tywin had been friends for a long time, right up to the betrayal of Dusk Valley and the beginning of Aerys' madness.
    Still, Tywin abandoned the rebels and helped a dynasty on a throne, anything but solid, just because of his family.
    Tywin doesn't really care about the realm, but he's absolutely loyal to his family.
    The living should smile, for the dead cannot.
  • Balerion the Black wrote:

    As far as I know, Aerys and Tywin had been friends for a long time, right up to the betrayal of Dusk Valley and the beginning of Aerys' madness.

    Well, Tywin was quite proud and Aerys had humiliated him several times.
    Wiki:
    In 276AL Lord Tywin had a tournament held in honor of the king. There he wanted to marry his daughter Cersei to Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Afraid of Tywin's ambitions for power, Aerys rudely declined the offer. The reason he gave was that Tywin was only a servant of the crown and that no servant's daughter was noble enough to marry a prince with royal blood. Lord Tywin had never forgotten this public offense.

    Aerys' relationship with Tywin Lannister deteriorated rapidly. According to Ser Barristan Selmy's later report, the situation was exacerbated by the king's interest in Tywin's wife, Joanna Lannister, known throughout the empire. Although Tywin had still hoped for a marriage alliance between Cersei and Prince Rhaegar, despite the mortification in Lennishort, the king decided two years later to bind Dorne more firmly to the Iron Throne by marrying Rhaegar to Elia Martell. He later named Jaime Lannister (Tywin's first and only able-bodied son) as the youngest knight to serve in the Kingsguard. Jaime and Tywin both assumed that the king did this not in honor but as an insult to the House of Lannister. With the appointment, he not only robbed Tywin of his heir, but could also use Jaime as a hostage to be sure of the loyalty of his father. Out of anger, Tywin invented a feeble excuse to resign from his position as the hand of the king and returned to Casterlystein.Aerys appointed Owen Sonnwetter, a good-natured but not particularly competent old man, to succeed him. His main qualification consisted, on the one hand, of the willingness to celebrate extravagant parties and, on the other, of flattering the king without a break.

    I think you could somehow assume that Tywin wouldn’t just take it like that.

    Balerion the Black wrote:

    just because of his family.
    Tywin doesn't really care about the realm, but he's absolutely loyal to his family.

    If Tywin were regent, I don't think he would be indifferent to the Reich. If the Reich is doing well, then his family is doing well too, so he would probably see to it that everything runs smoothly.

    Edit: I don't see Tywin Lannister as a classic hero.
    Expose yourself to your deepest fear
    After that ... you are free
    -Jim Morrison

    But it is time for me to learn that nothing lasts forever, both what is good and what is painful.